INTERVIEW with Dr. V. Craig Jordan
ESI Special Topics,
July 2001
Citing URL - http://www.esi-topics.com/breast-cancer/interviews/dr-v-craig-jordan.html
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V. Craig Jordan of the Northwestern University School of
Medicine is the author of 83 papers, which have been cited a
total of 1,839 times, making him one of the top 20 most-cited
breast cancer researchers of the 1990s. Dr. Jordan was the
first scientist to notice the anticancer properties of
tamoxifen as a preventive, and has had a hand in guiding the
clinical research in this agent. He was recently appointed the
Diana, Princess of Wales, Professor of Cancer Research at
Northwestern. He is also the director of the Lynn Sage Breast
Cancer Research Program, which is affiliated with Northwestern’s
Robert H. Lurie Comprehensive Cancer Center.
Dr. Jordan
spoke recently with ESI correspondent Gary Taubes about his
highly cited work.
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You’ve been studying tamoxifen for your entire career. Could you
tell us how and why you got started on it?
Back in 1970, I had decided to look at the structure-activity
relationships of anti-estrogens. At the time, these compounds had been
tested as anti-fertility agents in laboratory animals, but if anything
they increased fertility. Nobody was really interested in them. I
wanted to work on them as anticancer agents. When I had my Ph.D.
examination in 1972, the examiner was Dr. Arthur Walpole, who worked
for industry and was the patent holder of a compound that I had been
reading about called ICI 46,474. When I came to America as a visiting
scientist at the Worcester Foundation for Experimental Biology in
Massachusetts, I was allowed to do anything I wanted. I got there in
September 1972 and rang up Arthur Walpole and said, let’s turn ICI
46,474 into a breast cancer drug. He said, yes, he’d give me the
opportunity and resources to do that. This drug company, now called
AstraZeneca, gave me the resources and the technicians to do the first
systematic study of the compound which is now called tamoxifen. That
study demonstrated that tamoxifen prevented mammary cancer in rats,
and became a pivotal publication. And that’s really how I got
involved with tamoxifen and that’s what I’ve spent the last 30
years doing—studying anti-estrogens and breast cancer.
What was your logic in thinking that tamoxifen or any
anti-estrogens could prevent cancer?
It was known for most of the 20th century that one in
three premenopausal women who have advanced breast cancer, metastatic
breast cancer throughout their body, will respond to ovarian oblation—removing
their ovaries, the source of estrogen. The whole idea is that you are
withdrawing the fuel for the fire, if you like, by having no estrogen
around in the body. This was known in clinical practice, but nobody
really knew why it was. Then a scientist called Elwood Jensen
discovered the estrogen receptor in the 1950s and in 1962, he really
described the target cite specificity of estrogen around an animal
body. Estrogen bound in the uterus and the vagina. These were estrogen
target tissues. But it didn’t bind in heart and muscles, which weren’t
estrogen target tissues. He came up with the idea that the estrogen
receptor was necessary to cause estrogen-mediated events in the
tissue. He also said, let’s take this one step further: if we
measure the estrogen receptor in breast tumors, maybe the tumors that
respond to estrogen being taken away are the estrogen-dependent
tumors. So this became the start of the estrogen receptor test. You
could now predict which patients would respond to an ovariectomy. This
was the big advance in the 1960s. So I put all these little bits and
pieces together and it suggested that an anti-estrogen that blocks the
estrogen receptor will do the same thing.
Your most highly cited paper is a 1992 New England
Journal of Medicine article, entitled "Effects of tamoxifen
on bone-mineral density in postmenopausal women with breast
cancer" (NEJM, 326[13]: 852-6, 26 March 1992). What was
the significance of this paper and why was it so highly cited?
Here’s an important thing and a good story: it gets involved with
not only tamoxifen but also another anti-estrogen called raloxifene.
In the mid-1980s, people were thinking about using tamoxifen for the
prevention of breast cancer; the drug had been used since the early
1970s for breast cancer treatment. One of the concerns that I had
about recommending long-term tamoxifen therapy was that tamoxifen did
block estrogen action. But if estrogen is going to be good for bones
and coronary heart disease, which is what people believe, maybe if we
give anti-estrogens for a long time to women who are healthy, we might
prevent breast cancer, but they’ll all drop dead from coronary heart
disease or osteoporosis five or ten years later. You win on breast
cancer, but you lose on two other diseases. So when I was at the
University of Wisconsin in the mid-1980s, we did what I think is the
pivotal experiment – and it’s important to mention that we did all
this in animals first. Of course, it’s the clinical publication that
gets all the publicity and citations because this is the way the world
is made. But the paper that changed everything was published in Breast
Cancer Research and Treatment in 1987 and it was called "The
effects of anti-estrogens on bone in castrated and intact female
rats" (Breast Cancer Research and Treatment, 10[1]: 31-5,
1987). What we found was that tamoxifen and raloxifene both maintain
bone density in animals that have had their ovaries removed. You take
the estrogen away and the bone density goes down. But if you take the
estrogen away and treat with tamoxifen or raloxifene, you maintain
bone density. We got very excited about this. We said, look, we’ve
discovered selective estrogen receptor modulation, although at the
time we called it target-site specificity of anti-estrogens. In one
tissue, like mammary tissue, these compounds acted like
anti-estrogens. But in bone, these compounds worked as estrogen. Then
at Wisconsin we set up a clinical trial to see whether tamoxifen would
harm bone density in women and found it maintained bone density, just
like we saw in rats. That then became an important observation and the
paper that’s now so highly cited.
And what about coronary heart disease? Is that what you
cover in your second most highly cited publication, the 1991 Annals
of Internal Medicine paper entitled "Effects of tamoxifen on
cardiovascular risk-factors in postmenopausal women" (Annals
of Internal Medicine, 115[11]: 860-4, 1 December 1991)?
Yes, that paper came out of the same clinical trial. We measured
blood cholesterol in these women, and we found tamoxifen also does no
harm to their risk of coronary heart disease. But here’s where the
importance of these publications comes out. Based on the 1987
publication on animals, and seeing the way drug development was going
with tamoxifen, and seeing that tamoxifen was being targeted
specifically to high-risk women with breast cancer, in 1990 we came
out with a paper that altered the whole of the drug development of
these selective estrogen receptor modulators, known as SERMs. This was
Lerner and Jordan, "Development of anti-estrogens and their use
in breast cancer" (Cancer Research, 50[14]: 4177-89, 15
July 1990). In this paper, we decided to predict where we thought drug
development was going for the future. We basically said, well, half
the women who develop breast cancer aren’t high-risk women, they’re
normal-risk women whose only risk factor is that they are getting
older. These women are never going to get tamoxifen. What do we do for
these women? Here’s the idea: just turn over the coin. If tamoxifen
prevents breast cancer and is good for bones, why not develop a drug
for osteoporosis that prevents breast cancer as a positive side
effect. That’s where raloxifene comes in. It’s the first drug used
for osteoporosis that is now being tested against tamoxifen for the
prevention of breast cancer. These two compounds, tamoxifen and
raloxifene, turned out to be different sides of the same coin. And
raloxifene has the same beneficial effect on blood lipids. Both lower
LDL, the bad cholesterol, and that’s supposed to be good for
preventing coronary heart disease. Raloxifene is being tested at the
moment in women with high cholesterol and high risk of coronary heart
disease to see if we can protect them from developing coronary heart
disease.
What were the greatest challenges in performing and
presenting your work?
In the early 1970s, although there was enthusiasm everywhere for
the conquest of cancer, there was general agreement that it was
chemotherapy that was going to destroy cancer cells and cure cancer.
Anti-hormones like tamoxifen were assumed to be complete nonstarters.
So the challenge was overcoming the skepticism in the clinical
community that these particular agents were going to be of any use as
therapeutic agents. I think the second challenge has been really with
the interdisciplinary aspects of SERMs. For example, that 1987 paper
looking at tamoxifen and raloxifene on laboratory animals is never
cited by the osteoporosis people, even though it’s in the refereed
literature.
How do you decide where to submit or publish your
papers?
Well, for example, I’m a member of the American Association of
Cancer Research, so when it comes to my scientific papers I prefer to
publish in my professional journals: in particular, Clinical Cancer
Research and Cancer Research. I want to publish once or
twice a year in those journals. If I’m working in conjunction with
clinicians and they want to submit to the New England Journal of
Medicine, then we’ll do that. Although I’m normally not in
that loop. Because I was educated in Britain, I also publish in some
journals in the United Kingdom and Europe. I look at my research
program as being global rather than parochial. So I will publish in
the British Journal of Cancer or the European Journal of
Cancer. It is based on that sort of logic. These are good European
journals and they often ask me to write editorials or commentaries.
The same would be true for the Journal of the National Cancer
Institute. I have two or three articles that I’m very proud of
in the JNCI.
What message would you like to convey to the public
about your work?
What I have always done is tackle a problem based on what I
consider to be a sound hypothesis, but I’m trained as a
pharmacologist, so I want to develop concepts and medicines for
treating human beings. Everything I have done in my career is research
in the laboratory that has been targeted specifically to how I can
help to improve medicine for cancer or osteoporosis or other diseases.
My general message is that all my work has been specifically targeted
to help alleviate human diseases, but using animal models and
laboratory concepts to achieve that aim. What I’ve always wanted to
do is look at the good, the bad, and the ugly for these drugs—like
the old Clint Eastwood movie.
What are the most important clinical and scientific
implications of your work?
This work now gives us the possibility of multi-functional
medicines. You may be able to develop a medicine that maintains bone
density, prevents breast and endometrial cancers, and lowers the risk
of heart disease. Now what we have to do is marry molecular biology
and medicine and then marshal together all the mechanisms of how these
drugs work. It’s what I called, in an article in Scientific American,
making designer estrogens ("Designer estrogens," Scientific
American, 279[4]: 60-7, October 1998). Now we have tremendous
clues in this area and we can go off in lots of different directions
to develop drugs to treat a whole host of different diseases
associated with menopause.

Dr. V. Craig Jordan
Northwestern University School of Medicine
Robert H. Lurie Comprehensive Cancer Center
Lynn Sage Breast Cancer Research Program
Chicago, IL, USA
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ESI Special Topics,
July 2001
Citing URL - http://www.esi-topics.com/breast-cancer/interviews/dr-v-craig-jordan.html
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